tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post3549403525881915969..comments2024-01-03T00:52:19.030-08:00Comments on Les Leftovers: FRENCH BREAD HISTORY: Making medieval/Renaissance breadchezjimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-23226141132174644802020-05-11T16:58:40.952-07:002020-05-11T16:58:40.952-07:00What you're referring to were banal mills, run...What you're referring to were banal mills, run by lords or monasteries. Typically tenants were obliged to use them. They didn't leave, I think, because it was a long trek in many cases, but often they did mark the loaves, yes. It was pretty standard on big estates.<br /><br />Otherwise, who baked how often depended when and where. In the early middle ages, baking was largely a household chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-83072525811300490452020-05-11T16:42:11.096-07:002020-05-11T16:42:11.096-07:00Loved reading this!
Do you know of any sources th...Loved reading this!<br /><br />Do you know of any sources that go into the details of who baked breads during the medieval period and how often? I recall reading something about how most people (because having a household oven wasn't common) would bring their premade bread dough to a central (village?) oven for baking. They'd have to come back later for it and would usually attempt to David https://www.blogger.com/profile/17990525425532211865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-980944368370434072019-04-20T09:42:56.850-07:002019-04-20T09:42:56.850-07:00There is a recipe which could be something like wa...There is a recipe which could be something like waffles/wafers in Manuscript W (1213 - from the Herzog August Biobliothek of Wolfenbuttel, Germany) dubbed by Grewe and Hiatt as the Libellus de arte coquinaria (from the 2001 publication of the book).<br /><br />Item, nym eigere unde mel; werke daraff eynen dunnen dech. Sette dat uppe eyn iseren unde sla eigere myt mele unde gutdarin<br /><br />NowKiriel du Papillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06896380310335124936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-57022504323710372812017-04-05T20:54:12.023-07:002017-04-05T20:54:12.023-07:00Bear in mind what you find in early recipes tends ...Bear in mind what you find in early recipes tends to be upscale by default. Nor would I assume that they needed anything extra to make wafers attractive, not in a time when food itself was often limited. Even in Cuba today one of the favorite breads is basically a flavorless cracker, sold in long tubes. I bought some here and was surprised to find myself finishing the whole bag. Plus, the wafers chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-71222539363641836922017-04-05T12:45:49.936-07:002017-04-05T12:45:49.936-07:00Interesting. Well, your book I ordered arrives tod...Interesting. Well, your book I ordered arrives today, so I look forward to reading more about the breads and pastries of the day.<br /><br />On the topic of wine in wafers, it was definitely a French, Dutch and German convention in many/most of the 14th to early 18th centuries recipes I've come across. White wine, Malaga, and sack/sherries generally were a big part of wafers, even unsweetenedAdamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-81396902703161748112017-04-04T22:15:25.018-07:002017-04-04T22:15:25.018-07:00I realized a while back the skills necessary to be...I realized a while back the skills necessary to be a good cook - close attention to often tedious and repetitious details, for instance - are the opposite of those required for research. But yes I do make bread for myself from time to time; I even bought a hand mill.<br /><br />The early wafers just weren't all that rich. White wine, for instance, would have been added to something like a chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-62024009341237700812017-04-04T21:48:17.072-07:002017-04-04T21:48:17.072-07:00Reading through your posts, it's amusing you h...Reading through your posts, it's amusing you haven't gotten deeper into bread baking itself. I can't imagine knowing as much as you do and not wanting to live it out in dough.<br /><br />I'll clarify my remark about the "food of bourgeoisie"... I meant the foodstuffs of the bourgeoisie - refined wheat, sugar, chicken eggs (vs. duck or goose), cream, wine, and spices. Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-51724777997739425582017-04-04T20:02:34.459-07:002017-04-04T20:02:34.459-07:00Interesting stuff, Adam. You're one of the few...Interesting stuff, Adam. You're one of the few people other than myself I've seen plunge in in this depth. The Flemish recipes also include one for nieules, which is unusual.<br /><br />The Greek version wasn't necessarily said to have originated the French version. The Greeks and Romans both had pastry, but that seems to have reappeared in its own way in late medieval France. But thechezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-40113231318085432802017-04-04T19:28:35.762-07:002017-04-04T19:28:35.762-07:00The oldest French yeast waffle I've found is 1...The oldest French yeast waffle I've found is 1721: http://bit.ly/N9DRw0 The oldest yeasted waffle from anywhere is from Antwerp 1560 (page 38): http://bit.ly/2nVu3KZ<br /><br />That obleios origin story of the wafer/waffle never seems to add up to me. I don't know why obleios would migrate from Greece to France without showing up elsewhere (i.e., in many places in between) during their Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-80346418652601686232017-04-04T18:31:37.880-07:002017-04-04T18:31:37.880-07:00As a general thing, all flour-based products were ...As a general thing, all flour-based products were radically changed by things like roller mills. But my impression is that the earlier brioche was pretty much like today's, just not using as fine a flour (no earlier product did).<br /><br />For waffles, I touch on them in Early Medieval Bread:<br />http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2015/06/french-bread-history-late-medieval-bread.html<br /><br />chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-83286916257302704192017-04-04T17:27:43.813-07:002017-04-04T17:27:43.813-07:00That reminds me of some "discussions" I&...That reminds me of some "discussions" I've had about what constitutes brioche. Is it what they were making when the word came into being? Is it what they ate in Louis XIV-XVI's courts? Is what we make now brioche?<br /><br />I really think of it in a late 18th to early 19th century context. That's when boulangers would have reached certain heights in the technique of making Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-39668759808374076162017-04-02T16:59:43.532-07:002017-04-02T16:59:43.532-07:00Interesting notes. Thanks.
Here's one 18th ce...Interesting notes. Thanks.<br /><br />Here's one 18th century recipe for brioche:<br />https://books.google.com/books?id=srKFNvCmhikC&dq=brioche%20farine&pg=PA171#v=onepage&q&f=false<br /><br />Parmentier mentions a brioche made with potatoes, which must have been interesting. By the eighteenth century, brioche effectively replaced the pain benit offered in churches. La chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-29341623921131896162017-04-02T15:39:54.852-07:002017-04-02T15:39:54.852-07:00Among my interests is 18th century brioche. So a c...Among my interests is 18th century brioche. So a couple years back, I purchased a flour mill (Grainmaker No. 99), specialty sieves, and a small boar bristle brush to help pass the flour through the fine mesh. Tempered, milled, and bolted, I consistently turn soft white wheat berries into white flour. When compared to the pastry flour of the same vendor (Bob's Red Mill), my flour is as white (Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-17455832617880801442016-01-21T09:49:25.346-08:002016-01-21T09:49:25.346-08:00I'm pretty sure the amount of water is only fo...I'm pretty sure the amount of water is only for the white dough, which is the focus of the test (the other information seems to be included mainly to account for differences in volume, etc.)<br /><br />Water content and absorption seems to be a complex subject and varies by region. It looks like SOME soft wheat has higher water content and better absorption, yes:<br /><br />Samulov- Water chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-80655394603905743852016-01-21T09:47:33.840-08:002016-01-21T09:47:33.840-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-34851235372505154362016-01-21T09:13:41.194-08:002016-01-21T09:13:41.194-08:00It occurs to me that one possible solution to the ...It occurs to me that one possible solution to the lack of water puzzle is that my flour might be much drier than theirs. Do you have any information on water content?<br /><br />I'm making one more loaf at present. I started with 12 oz of flour, 2 oz of dough from the previous batch, left it about eight hours, then added 4t water, which is what I calculate the instructions imply for a single David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-20536993231982575782016-01-20T15:51:47.353-08:002016-01-20T15:51:47.353-08:00It was considered lower status, for whatever reaso...It was considered lower status, for whatever reason, yes. Maslin bread was usually for servants (who were lucky if they didn't just get rye).<br /><br />According to Malouin (18th c), it was indeed half and half:<br /><br />"Une mine de méteil, c'est-à-dire , une mine composée de moitié froment & moitié seigle de 17so, a produit 273 livres & demie de pain."<br /><br />chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-17018816728783698902016-01-20T15:45:36.634-08:002016-01-20T15:45:36.634-08:00The modern rye bread recipe I've used has a lo...The modern rye bread recipe I've used has a lot less than half rye. But I'll probably try it at half. The modern recipe uses rye for flavor. I'm assuming the period recipe uses rye because it was less expensive than wheat, since it would grow in places where wheat didn't, although I could be mistaken.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-27120547116216951532016-01-20T15:30:52.985-08:002016-01-20T15:30:52.985-08:00My impression has always been that maslin was half...My impression has always been that maslin was half of each; but I don't know of any specific sources off-hand. If you're just curious how it tastes, however, bear in mind that most "rye" bread today is effectively maslin, since it typically includes a fair amount of wheat flour as well.<br /><br />For salt, see my section above on ADDITIVES; also the earlier post about late chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-68200523122975306102016-01-20T15:07:39.340-08:002016-01-20T15:07:39.340-08:00I'm tempted to try maislin. Do we have any inf...I'm tempted to try maislin. Do we have any information on the ratio of rye flour to wheat flour?<br /><br />In your version, I assume 300 degrees is Fahrenheit. That seems low. Do you have information on how hot the sorts of ovens used would have been?<br /><br />On the question of salt. My impression is that even when salt was relatively expensive due to taxation, it wasn't expensive David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-75642438158022252382016-01-20T12:03:14.181-08:002016-01-20T12:03:14.181-08:00First of all, thanks for trying. I'm hoping en...First of all, thanks for trying. I'm hoping enough experienced bakers will do so, and share their discoveries, that some consensus can be determined on how to use this account.<br /><br />I presume you've looked at the original account? I believe I've transcribed the amounts accurately. But I can certainly see your point. Honestly, both the amounts of water and salt seem shockingly chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-26828161869245749112016-01-20T11:32:30.819-08:002016-01-20T11:32:30.819-08:00I've been looking more carefully at your "...I've been looking more carefully at your "recipe" from the trials, and there is something wrong. Calculating it down to one loaf by dividing by 76, I get 12 ounces of flour and 2/3 of an ounce of water--a little over a tablespoon. I don't believe it.<br /><br />If we assume that the "13 pounds 2 ounces were added" is water and all going into the white bread that'sDavid Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-50837275199849504762016-01-06T18:00:20.494-08:002016-01-06T18:00:20.494-08:00Well, I certainly should have said "European ...Well, I certainly should have said "European bread recipes". Sorry, I try not to be Eurocentric, but since my series is on French bread history it was easy to slip.<br /><br />Platina is a borderline case. Technically, yes, he's Renaissance, being Italian in the period considered the Italian Renaissance. But of course that is quibbling, since he's within the time period I use chezjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552197985756973087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-605157142783588112.post-2919267182630257892016-01-06T16:24:47.353-08:002016-01-06T16:24:47.353-08:00"no medieval recipes for bread survive at all..."no medieval recipes for bread survive at all"<br /><br />That might be true for France. But al-Warraq's 10th century cookbook contains multiple bread recipes. Platina has a rather brief bread recipe as well—do you count him as renaissance rather than medieval?David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.com